A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones that need the advice.-- Bill Cosby

Oops, Isaac left, I guess he went to put his speedo back on.:laugh::laugh:

Sorry, Morpheus, but you misunderstood. I did not say that people who do not believe in reincarnation are automatically baseless and uneducated. I am saying that if you reject reincarnation without knowing anything about it, then your opinion is baseless. Or you could say that the base of your opinion is that you have been taught the ascension theory as truth all your life, which is where one-sided education comes in. I did not say that this applies to everyone, or every supporter of ascension. I am sure there are many out there who have educated themselves on both topics.

This is one of the major differences between the Christian and Pagan paths. Christians are given their truth in the form of a book and told "this is all the truth you need." And that's fine. Pagans, on the other hand, are given many books and told "Find your own truth through trial and error."

As for me, my opinion is hardly biased. I have been taught both the ascension theory as well as reincarnation and when I compare the two logically, I find that reincarnation seems more natural and likely to be the way of things. This is my educated opinion.

Take care where you label groups as "bigots," because I too have seen my fair share of it and not just from minorities.

Good Post Anime.:clap:

First...

then...

I think there is a spot for you on the Democratic Ticket! :laugh::laugh::laugh:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y10...on-witch-1.jpg
Glad you weren't sky clad for this shot!

LOOK it's a MAGIC tray!!! Apparently Gaia likes cheeseburgers. Hey Pie, you better check to make sure Ronald got the order right!

Morpheus, I don't know which look worse the cheeseburger or the clown.:laugh:

Friday night and time to get
SKY CLAD
:monkey::monkey::monkey::monkey::monkey::monkey:

I'm just very curious Anime to know how and when you were introduced to paganism? Most of us were introduced to Christianity from our parents. Was/is your household pagan?

+1 :twist: :banana::beerchug::w00t:

Motor boat, motor boat go so slow
Motor boat, motor boat go so fast
Motor boat, motor boat step on the gas!!!!!!!!!:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Good luck!

now what does a squaw know of motorboats, hmmm? ;)

That Pokie is a mess :monkey: :D

Mr. Pokie must be one motor boatin' son of a gun!:D

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y10...ford/ninja.jpg

Hey Tom, sorry we assassinated your thread. Perhaps you should start another.

Actually, I'm the only Pagan in my entire family, let alone my household. I grew up in a loose Baptist family from Jonesboro, LA, where I acquired my Christian education. Shortly after high school, I joined the military and moved to Florida where I was stationed. While I was there, I picked up an interest in tarot reading. I found it such a fascinating topic that I picked up other books on various occult-related topics and divination, met some of the local Craft users, and the path just sat right with me. Not long after, I began wearing a pentacle necklace not unlike the one I wear today.

I'm not here to recruit people to Paganism, but I find it to be much broader and with so much to learn. Including prayer, there are numerous skills that easily prove useful to a practitioner in daily life.

I haven't said much on this topic, because I honestly don't know much about reincarnation. I do however know a lot about the Christian way of life. In the whole how to present an arguement, I have to side with Morph. In order to present a paper or debate about something, one typically does have to present both the pros and cons (also known as a comparison) - based soley alone on the fact that there may be some who aren't educated on either topic. Also, in doing so, you really allow the reader to make an educated opinion on the topic.

A couple of times I have read that people who believe in the "ascension" theory are just told that and they believe it. WRONG!!! I am a Christian and happy to say that I fully believe in the heaven and hell area of this conversation. I am going to Heaven. I wasn't told this and believed it, it has come with YEARS of learning and reading not only my Bible, but also multiple reference books, and seeking the counsel of those who are very educated on the topic. So, don't say that we who believe in this are just spoonfed and take it for fact.

I do also have to say that the only way these two subjects compare is that there are some in both "practices" that hear the facts and take it as the gospel - and then there are others (like on this board) who are educated and seek the truth. That, my friends, is where the comparison ends!!

If you side with ascension without even learning about reincarnation, then you kinda prove my point. I'm not going to accuse anyone of being a spoonfed Christian, though, but they are out there. You'd be amazed how many people brought up in Christian homes never even considered learning about another religion, be it Paganism, Buddhism, Muslim or any other world religion. I've known my fair share of Christians here in the South that not only have no interest in world religion, but consider having such topics in their presence highly offensive. I, myself, have almost been removed from households just for admitting that I'm a Pagan.

I am not generalizing by any means, mind you. We've all seen how intolerant Muslims can be as well and such lack of understanding, I think, is where the problem lies.

If you have spent the hours you say you have on reading the understanding your path and it has led you to deeper belief, then you are where you should be, nuf said. Still, it doesn't hurt to take an interest in other religious practices. No one is asking you to convert, mind you, but having some knowledge brings about an aura of interest, empathy, and understanding that really helps fill the gap between people of different cultures.

it's a sign of the times.. people believe what they are going to believe.. doesn't matter the topic. The days of debate and discovery.. for the most part, appear to be gone. Personally I believe the power of debate and discussion.. over the years, there are things I've changed my mind on.. there are bits and pieces I've taken from here and there.. to form my own opinions. I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong, or when I'm not sure of something.. if I don't know.. I want to be taught. Teach me.

Peace.

I have tried to keep from commenting on this thread topic but the views are getting rediculous. I have nothing against Christianity or Paganism. To sit here and argue about things you could not possibly prove is pointless. I know there is no one who could actually prove there is a heaven or hell. I know of no one that has actually seen it for themselves. I also know you can not prove reincarnation, I have never seen anyone die and come back as something else. You believe what you believe because it is what you read in books or was told. As for as the weakminded they can be swayed either way, they have free will just like the rest of us. I grew up going to The Assembly of God [my dad], my mother is Morman, my step-father was Baptist and I know some Pagans as far as I am concerned I don't care what a person believes in as long as they don't try to push their beliefs on me. A vast difference is what makes up this world so to each his own. Close minded people contribute to the distant between people. The arguement about what came first the egg or the chicken who can prove it. Educate yourself even if that is not your belief then you can at least carry on a conversation with others. Enough said.

That's my point, exactly. No one is saying that research must lead to conversion, but keeping an open mind and gathering some knowledge on others allows you to relate more easily when you interact with people who are different. This leads to peaceful conversation, understanding, and tolerance, things that we all need more and more each day.

I'm trying to educate myself a little.:) Why does the pentacle or pentagram seem to be synonymous with the devil whereas Pagans use the symbol as well and don't believe in devil worship, right?

Since you ask out of curiosity, I'd be happy to explain. You're certainly not the first person to ask me about this and not likely to be the last.

First, the "pentagram" is a simple five-pointed star, nothing more. It's the same one we all learned to draw as a child and the same one we see on the American flag and carried by many police officers as badges. When a circle is placed around this star, it becomes the "Pentacle," the primary religious icon for most Pagan paths (yes, there are many various Pagan paths).

Attachment 1910

The pentacle represents the 5 elements that make up all things in our world: Earth, Air, Fire, Water, and Spirit. We have all of these within us and without them, life could not exist. The point of the star facing straight up represents spirit, or that spark of the Divine that we all carry. By placing this point above the others (material elements), we concede that the divine rules over the Earth.

Just as Satanic groups use the reversed cross, they also use the Baphomet, or reversed pentacle (often with a goathead on it). By placing the spirit point down, they are claiming that humans are greater than the Divine. As I don't practice this, or know anyone who does, I cannot intelligently speak any more than that on Satanism, but that's their connection to the pentacle.

Attachment 1909

Please note that I said I don't know MUCH. Not that I don't know ANYTHING. In fact, I have researched several different religions - just to understand what people believe. You are correct in saying that there are some spoonfed Christians out there, but there are also Spoonfed Pagans, Muslims, etc. It is what you make it.

Please also know and understand that I am not here to down anyone and their beliefs. One GREAT thing about AMERICA is that we are FREE to choose how we worship or what we believe. I can honestly say that I have learned a little more on reincarnation from this post, I still fail to see the simalarity to ascension. I guess more research is needed:peace::D

One of the ways other religions attack Christianity is this turn the other cheek mentality. Wrong :nono: I am not going to change the standard of my faith to accommodate any other religion. I too have read about every religion I can find to read about. They do all have one common theme they are jealous that our Father did not choose them as his number one people. Not to say they too can have the same salvation but not the seed line the Redeemer would come through. It is written in the Bible and in the stars. The false Baal Priest did not do well when they challenged the hand of God !

Deuteronomy 32:9-12
9 For the LORD’S portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance.

10 He found him in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; he led him about, he instructed him, he kept him as the apple of his eye.

11 As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings:

12 So the LORD alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with him.
http://www.carm.org/kjv/Deut/Deut_32.htm

Every Christian should know this chapter like the back of your hand.
:think::think::think::think::think::think::think:
Jacob blesses Ephraim and Manasseh
Attachment 1911
Ephraim (UK) and Manasseh (USA) the Ten northern tribes.

Maranatha

Thanks Anime! I'm really glad you don't use Satan in your worship!:)

Well Said

Please don't be offended by my saying so, Isaac, but I find it amusing that you consider the "turn the other cheek" mentality an attack when the "turn the other cheek" concept originated from Jesus Christ himself. -Matthew 5:38-42, NIV, The Sermon on the Mount.

Seriously Isaac, is it really your opinion that I or my fellow Pagans are jealous of Christians?

I can't speak for other religions, but Paganism is an extremely flexible practice. Craft users are allowed to live their lives any way they wish so long as they follow the Pagan's Rede, "As you harm none, do as you will." This is an extremely tall order that includes every possible definition of the word "harm." You could say that it's our "One Commandment."

Jealousy plays no role in the path whatsoever. To be jealous of another person or group is a personal choice. I've never seen any Pagan group or body instruct its followers to be jealous of others. What would be the point?

That speaks volumes by its' self. What a SHALLOW interpretation of reality! And easy- So, basically, you believe that when you die you will come back as a butterfly or a tree? Is what you come back as totaly random, or does it concern your "kharma"?:laugh::laugh: Again, good luck with that.....:rolleyes:

I'm not sure what you mean by saying the Rede is "shallow," but it's certainly a tall order. It includes everything that the ten commandments include and much more. It implies that the only evil we have to worry about is the suffering that we do to each other. It places the responsibility for our wrong decisions on our own shoulders and our free will and not in the hands of some evil entity or devil (whom Pagans don't even acknowledge).

As for what our vessels are, that depends entirely on your tradition. Some traditions honor animals to such a degree that they'd consider it an honor to reincarnate as an animal (i.e. wolves, lions, tiger, etc.). On the other hand, some trads believe human souls only reincarnate as other humans. Some trads even believe that the individual soul chooses its vessel before rebirth.

I, for one, could care less what I came back as. When it happens, I won't know the difference.

I got your other cheek Anime. I will not walk in your house and attack your religion and if I did I would turn the other cheek. If you walk in my house and attack my faith I would knock you on your ass. I know you would not do that but that is my point. Christians are not door mats and I do not have to be a nice guy all the time. When it comes to what I believe as you have seen I will hold the line with no apologies. Yes other countries and peoples are jealous of the USA and UK I hope you can see that :confused:

If you came into my house and attacked my religion, you wouldn't be in the position to turn the other cheek or not as you'd be the one attacking me. If I came into your house and attacked your religion, I'd be stupid not to expect a good @$$ kicking on the way because I'd be very rude and disrespectful. In either case, whether it's you or me turning the other cheek, it is in no way an attack on Christianity.

I'm not a doormat either, Isaac, and I certainly don't expect you to be. My patience and tolerance of direct, intentional rudeness and dishonor (regardless of the basis of such conduct) are quite limited. When that line is crossed I'd gladly welcome the bad karma that comes with giving some jerk the @$$kicking of his life for insulting or dishonoring me. It's a matter of respect and propriety, not religion.

I have far more patience for people who accidentally insult me out of ignorance or curiosity. I let those slide all the time without a second thought.

Now that we're past that, let's talking about religious intolerance for a moment. No one here is insulting anyone's religion. I have no more against Christianity than I do against any other world religion. I have total faith in my own practice, but I am not rude or disrespectful enough to put down anyone else's beliefs. "To each, his own." Anyone who tries to deny religious freedom to someone else for ANY reason, in my book, is on the list with Adolf Hitler and Osama Bin Laden.

Yes, I can agree that there are countries that are jealous of the American way of life, but not because of religion. I do not consider myself more precious to the divine simply because of where I live.

I don't know about Anime but I for one don't like your post. I have not read anywhere on this thread someone calling a christian a door mat. Futhermore you are the only one that is talking knocking people on their ass. I don't see anywhere where your religion is being attacked. You are sounding more like someone from another country, talk about my religion and I'll kill you. I don't have to be nice either but if this is what christianity teaches people to act like then I don't want no part of it. I also have your other cheek. I don't believe in attacking someone's beliefs but I also try not to be rude.

LateNight I don't always agree with you, but you called this one, didn't you? :D

LOL, yeah, but I was referring to Joepole and I forget who else, were arguing about what the meaning of "is" is.. or was that what makes a good argument or debate? Things have taken yet another turn. :cool::peace:

I drifted off during that part of the conversation. :p

Well it wasn't exactly a difficult call. You can count on passion-and therefore controversy and strong discussion in three areas: Religion, Politics and Sports. It's why I don't discuss these things at work.

Agreed, only these three are the only things we talk about at work.... LOL, we have no women or minorities at work, but we do have various religions, candidates, and sports teams we all root for... Not a bad work place...

I find that these topics can be discussed peacefully if all parties don't take it to personally. I've been on religious forums before and members actually keep it impressively clean most of the time. They know how to give each other their due space.