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Old 03-19-2007, 10:44 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Swearengen
There are a very few functions that the federal government SHOULD be tasked with, such as national defense, the interstates, currency and so on...the rest should be up to the individual states. The federal government has grown wayyyy too damn big for it's britches, and I challenge ya to name just ONE way that this has benefitted any of us.
That's a great topic for a different thread!
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Old 03-19-2007, 11:00 PM   #17
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If you are of Native American decent, chances are you were either a slave or a slave owner. If you are of Acadian decent, chances are you were either a slave or a slave owner. If you are of African decent, chances are you were either a slave or a slave owner...but if you are of African decent and you landed in America then your own people sold you to America as a slave.

Get the hell over it already, everyone.

The confederate flag? It symbolizes "rebel" to many. The boy one of my daughter's married is black and he loves that flag. He wears a tshirt with it.

Get over it.
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Old 03-19-2007, 11:01 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by MattyMattyChooChoo
That's a great topic for a different thread!
Agreed! But my statements are also relevant to this thread, and I stand by them. There is no denying the fact that had the south prevailed, the modern Confederacy we would be enjoying would offer far greater personal freedom and a much easier "pursuit of happiness" to the individual American than this bloated monstrosity of a Union. It was about state's rights then, its about state's rights now.
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Old 03-19-2007, 11:15 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Al Swearengen
Agreed! But my statements are also relevant to this thread, and I stand by them. There is no denying the fact that had the south prevailed, the modern Confederacy we would be enjoying would offer far greater personal freedom and a much easier "pursuit of happiness" to the individual American than this bloated monstrosity of a Union. It was about state's rights then, its about state's rights now.
So how would this utopia have developed in the Confederate states, a people who were more concerned with slavery ending or not ending on their terms rather than the end of slavery and recognizing the dignity of the human person?

The fact is, there were more people against slavery than for it, more democratically elected officials in the legislative and executive branches. The majority population won on an issue that was of great moral consequence.
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Old 03-19-2007, 11:23 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by MattyMattyChooChoo
Somebody please answer me, what is it about the heritage of the Confederacy that is so important?
OK, I will try. All heritage is important to someone, right?. Are you saying that not all heritage is important? If so, then who decides what is important and what is not? My point is this is yet another slippery slope. Do we really want the PC police deciding for us? I like making up my own mind, but moreover, I like having the choice to CHANGE my mind as I grow smarter. This is a luxury in some parts.....
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Old 03-19-2007, 11:24 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by MattyMattyChooChoo
So how would this utopia have developed in the Confederate states, a people who were more concerned with slavery ending or not ending on their terms rather than the end of slavery and recognizing the dignity of the human person?

The fact is, there were more people against slavery than for it, more democratically elected officials in the legislative and executive branches. The majority population won on an issue that was of great moral consequence.
The slavery issue had very little to do with the war. To believe otherwise is to succumb to Unionist propoganda. And keep in mind that the victors write the history books. "How would this utopia have developed"? Well, lets look at what it would mean today in practical terms. SO many hot button issues boil down to state's rights. If you were terminally ill and wanted to use marijuana, you could simply travel to a state where such use is legal and available. Lets use the illness example again, and say that if you were terminally ill and wanted physician-assisted suicide, you could simply travel to a state where such a service was legal and available. In BOTH cases, your personal freedom of choice is infringed upon by a federal government that has overstepped the limits of it's authority.

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Old 03-19-2007, 11:27 PM   #22
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Let me interject here to say...I love the way you all debate. It's so refreshing. No name calling like I see in other forums. Well, except when that creep is aroound.
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Old 03-19-2007, 11:50 PM   #23
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If slavery had nothing to do with it, then what started the states rights debate?

Just like the evolution debate, there had to be something that started the motion.
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Old 03-20-2007, 01:15 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattyMattyChooChoo
If slavery had nothing to do with it, then what started the states rights debate?

Just like the evolution debate, there had to be something that started the motion.
"The south maintained with the depth of religious conviction that the Union formed under the Constitution was a "Union of consent" and not of force, that the original states were not the creatures but the creators of the Union, that these states had gained their independence, their freedom, and their sovereignty from the mother country, and had not surrendered these on entering the Union, that by the express terms of the Constitution all rights and powers not delegated were reserved to the states, and the South challenged the North to find one trace of authority in that Constitution for invading and coercing a sovereign state."

Slavery was merely a contemporary controversial and inflammatory issue of the day that was used as a pretext by Lincoln and the North to go to war with the Confederacy, much like "WMD's" was used as a pretense to go to war with Iraq.

Does that answer your question?

Last edited by Al Swearengen; 03-20-2007 at 03:21 AM.
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Old 03-20-2007, 04:14 AM   #25
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I do not wish we still had slaves

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texasbelle
The first thing that came to my mind, and I realize this could make this debate get even hotter, after reading your post Isaac is the Katrina disaster and Superdome. There were so many of that group of people who just sat around PRIOR to the storm that had the opportunity to help themselves but chose not to. Instead waited and sat around because of that mentality of "You owe it to me". That cow has been milked dry and it's time to get over it. The Confederate flag stands for a lot of things for a lot of people. Almost 200,000 people died fighting in that war for beliefs they believed strongly in and if we choose to honor them by flying that flag, then it is MY right. I have to tolerate the Black History month. Where is the White History month? Can you hear them screaming now if that month came? If you don't like the flag, don't look at it. I don't believe that many, if hardly any, flying it today are flying it with the thought in mind of, "Gee, I wish we still had slaves."
I am tired of the poor me babies crying for more government hand outs and saying we owe them. It was their cry for freedom and they are still crying for more because the government has trained them that way. They have more chances at the American dream than other people yet they as a group would rather sit on their butts and wait on that check (public dole) and their fair share program and energy supplement checks and food stamps kind of like a bad child that wants to be paid but not told what to do. What they need to tell them is get a job and stay in school and become a tax payer ! With that said I agree with Al the war was about a lot more than slaves it was about the union wanting to control the whole show. There are boats that leave for Africa for all those "African American" people that do not like our system. I guess the same goes for me I could be headed back to Scotland is I wanted to be a "Scottish American" but I am just a American and I do not need to place anything in front of that !
Texasbelle you are such a southern lady and I would like to wish you a very happy 40th birthday today !!!!!!!!!!
Maybe the south is going to do it again ? We say grace and we say ma'am and if you aint in to that we don't give a damn
Isaac
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Old 03-20-2007, 07:59 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texasbelle
The first thing that came to my mind, and I realize this could make this debate get even hotter, after reading your post Isaac is the Katrina disaster and Superdome. There were so many of that group of people who just sat around PRIOR to the storm that had the opportunity to help themselves but chose not to. Instead waited and sat around because of that mentality of "You owe it to me". That cow has been milked dry and it's time to get over it. The Confederate flag stands for a lot of things for a lot of people. Almost 200,000 people died fighting in that war for beliefs they believed strongly in and if we choose to honor them by flying that flag, then it is MY right. I have to tolerate the Black History month. Where is the White History month? Can you hear them screaming now if that month came? If you don't like the flag, don't look at it. I don't believe that many, if hardly any, flying it today are flying it with the thought in mind of, "Gee, I wish we still had slaves."
Well I got into a debate on this last year with someone and basically I said what you said, I wanted White history month, White Entertainment, All white Pageants, All white Colleges, and damn I want a road called John F. Kennedy running through every city/town in the US as there is a Martin Luther King in each one. If we had all this we all know how "racist" we would be.

I said this before and I'll say it again, I HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT MY ANCESTORS DID IF THEY DID ANYTHING WITH SLAVES. WHY THE HELL DO I HAVE TO PAY FOR WHAT OTHERS DID??????????

We are in the year 2007 wake up america I don't owe anyone of any race anything and if you have one for one race it should be for all I don't care what happened 200 years ago.

I could go on and on on this one i'll calm down for now and go shopping and will bbl today to see what I can add to the fire.
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Old 03-20-2007, 08:25 AM   #27
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I am with you on this. I never thought much of having a John F. Kennedy road through every town, but I'd rather have it a Ronald Reagan road actually! But hey, it's better than a Martin Luther King because really what did he truly accomplish? He started a movement? I try to get it but I just don't.

I am tired of all the whining out of them. I am tired of 45% of every hard earned dollar my husband earns goes to taxes which in turns lands in alot of their pockets so they can sit at home, run up the crime rate, get free medical care, etc. It's just as irritating as snot. One of my biggest pet peeves is to go to Wal Mart shortly after the first and watch them buy groceries on their food stamp card and see the amount they get. It is unbelievable how much they get, what they buy, and that I am paying for it. And then usually the female will have a Louis Vuitton purse, a cell phone, a "grill", and on and on.

Yes, I could gripe for days about the ways this mentality of "you owe it to me" irritates me. I am with Al on the basis that I believe the Confederate states had they continued to exist would not have allowed this ever. Yes we would have gotten rid of slavery, but the government coming in and taking over and creating all of this would not have happened.
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Old 03-20-2007, 08:49 AM   #28
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Al, what is your source of information?

The "south" was not a sovereign state and none of the states of the United States are sovereign states, equal to the power of the United States. An example of a sovereign state is a geographic region with a governing body that is recognized on the world stage. The governor of Texas does not go to China as an ambassador of Texas to wage war or peace between China and Texas. It was also the American Colonies that framed and ratified the Constitution and THEN became states, Delaware being the first. They were not states first, then built the Union.

rhertz: "OK, I will try. All heritage is important to someone, right?. Are you saying that not all heritage is important? If so, then who decides what is important and what is not? My point is this is yet another slippery slope. Do we really want the PC police deciding for us? I like making up my own mind, but moreover, I like having the choice to CHANGE my mind as I grow smarter. This is a luxury in some parts....."

The importance of heritage to a person doesn't make it right. The terrorists have a heritage of killing indiscriminately those with whom they disagree. Is that a heritage in which it is good to take pride? (I'm not calling you a terrorist.)

Al, the southern states seceded, formed the Confederacy, then the Confederate States attacked the Union at Ft. Sumter. The Union didn't start the war.

Isaac, I understand and agree with you that our welfare system needs to be seriously revamped, but it makes your reason for waving the Confederate flag sound like you just don't like black people.

Scarlett, I agree. We don't owe anybody and nobody deserves payback for something that happened to their ancestors. If that were the case, I'd be the king of Scotland.
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Old 03-20-2007, 10:14 AM   #29
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Some quotes

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"If the right of secession be denied...and the denial enforced by the sword of coercion; the nature of the polity is changed, and freedom is at its end. It is no longer a government by consent, but a government of force. Conquest is substituted compact, and the dream of liberty is over." --Albert Taylor Bledsoe,

Quote:
Make no mistake, the NAACP boycott is no longer about putting historical emblems in proper historical perspective-it's about blotting them out of existence. But what next? Shall we eliminate the graves of fallen Confederate soldiers? Shall we pretend they never existed? --Greenville [South Carolina] News,
You know. the more I read about this. I do believe, that leading up to the civil war.. MUCH of the debate, did have to do with slavery. New states were being formed, southern states wanted them to be entered into the Union as slave states. The debate on slavery had started LONG before the civil war. But I would also add, that once the southern states seceded from the Union.. the war became about restoring the Union as a whole.. RIGHT OR WRONG. (as far as the north was concerned. the south's goal.. to be left alone... )

Quote:
"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and it is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that. What I do about slavery and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union." --Abraham Lincoln in an 1862 letter to Horace Greeley on his justification for the Northern War of Aggression against the constitutional secession of the South. In September 1862
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Old 03-20-2007, 10:15 AM   #30
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Heritage is important, but not because you're suppose to have pride in it. The point of history is so that we can remember. We remember the heroes and the villain of humanity's past because it is part of our race's fight to earn collective wisdom.

It may be true that terrorists have a heritage of their own and I don't think that is anything to be proud of. However, this is no reason for me to forget about it. I might forget who the terrorists once were.

As far as the Confederate flag, it is as much a part of history as the bullet that shot Lincoln or the antique guns that once fought the bloodiest battles in the Civil War. We are not proud of these events, but we want to remember them and honor them because if you don't respect history and the chain of events that lead to it, you are doomed to repeat it.
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