What Do You Think Of The Confederate Flag?
 

The Sons of Confederate Veterans waged war this week with a Florida art museum over artwork featured in a Black History Month art exhibition.

Yeah, I saw a clip on Youtube where a similar debate has gone on right here in Shreveport over the Conderate flag.



I'm not sure about my views on the topic. I'm not bothered by the Confederate flag in the least, but I know there are those that are.

I have asked a handful of people why they fly the Confederate flag and the answer is always the same. "It's not about racism, it's about heritage," which does not answer my question. I'm not sure what that statement means. The heritage of the Confederate states? The heritage of the south?

In addition, when the South seceded, they did so illegally (not that there is any legal way to secede.) The land, infrastructure, homes, government institutions, etc. were all funded, acquired by or under the authority of the Union, and in seceding, the Confederates were in essence stealing the land, roads, and infrastructure from the Union.

Also, a prevailing idea in that the Civil War was fought over States Rights vs. Federal Jurisdiction. President Lincoln believed that if slavery was to be abolished, it was a large enough moral issue that it would have to be abolished throughout the Union as a whole in order to preserve the Union.

Finally, it could be debated that the Confederates just simply wanted to continue with slavery.

Whichever way I slice it, I still don't see a reason for flying the Confederate flag, and I don't understand "the heritage" that people are trying to remember.

>In addition, when the South seceded, they did so illegally (not that there is any legal way to secede.) The land, infrastructure, homes, government institutions, etc. were all funded, acquired by or under the authority of the Union, and in seceding, the Confederates were in essence stealing the land, roads, and infrastructure from the Union.

1. Where did the Federal government get its money? Was the South not paying taxes at the time?

2. Isn't that how we got our country in the first place? By doing the same thing to the British?

You don't understand that people are proud to be associated with an institution that was willing to go to war (that it was almost certain to lose) to defend its principles?

The civil war was about states' rights. Slavery was an issue, but not the most important and certainly not the only.

Hear, hear for JOEPOLE
 

Well stated Joepole. The Confederate flag has been taken away from people under the banner of "discrimination" towards blacks. That is BS :nono: They can take it how they would like but the bottom line is put your heart in Dixie or get your ass out ! :clap: :clap:
Isaac

1. The Federal Government got its money from citizens of the United States, not from citizens of the "South".

2. We got our country by LEAVING the geographic location of England to start a new country, not TAKING the geographic location of England.

People are proud to be associated with an institution that was willing to go to war to defend its principles of keeping other human beings as slaves? No matter who makes the decision, slavery is/was wrong. The war was about the states' rights to choose whether or not they abolished slavery.

Furthermore, you are asserting that the states had some sort of supremacy or sovereignty (which never existed) over the Federal government. The states did not join the Union as states, they joined as territories, were purchased or conquered, then were given the power of states.

In Abraham Lincoln’s Special Message to Congress, July 4, 1861, he outlined the rationale of the advocates of secession:

“They invented an ingenious little sophism, which, if conceded, was followed by perfectly logical steps, through all the incidents, to the complete destruction of the Union. The sophism itself is that any state of the Union may, consistently with the national Constitution, and therefore lawfully, and peacefully, withdraw from the Union, without the consent of the Union, or of any other state. The little disguise that the supposed right is to be exercised only for just cause, themselves to be the sole judge of its justice, is too thin to merit any notice.”

Lincoln continues:

The States have their status IN the Union, and they have no other legal status. If they break from this, they can only do so against law, and by revolution. The Union, and not themselves separately, procured their independence, and their liberty. By conquest, or purchase, the Union gave each of them, whatever of independence, and liberty…Unquestionably, the States have the powers, and rights, reserved to them in, and by the National Constitution; but among these, surely, are not included all conceivable powers, however mischievous, or destructive; but, at most, such only, as were known in the world, at the time, as governmental powers; and certainly, a power to destroy the government itself, and never been know as governmental—as a merely administrative power…Whatever concerns the whole, should be confided to the whole—to the general government; while, whatever concerns only the State, should be left exclusively, to the state.

>We got our country by LEAVING the geographic location of England to start a new country, not TAKING the geographic location of England.

What exactly happened on THIS continent in the late 1770s, then?

>The States have their status IN the Union, and they have no other legal status.

Exactly, the states of the confederacy felt that the Federal government was not living up to its end of the bargain. Our country was never intended to be a Federal government that ruled over the states, it was intended to be a Federal government that protected the common interests of the states, something many felt wasn't happening. Most Americans at the time (and many today) felt a much stronger affiliation with their home town/state/region than with their country.

>The war was about the states' rights to choose whether or not they abolished slavery.

This is just completely wrong. The war was about protecting the interests of less populous, agrarian states vs. the interests of the states that contained the industrial/commercial centers of the country.

The black people of today would have you think that
 

"The war was about the states' rights to choose whether or not they abolished slavery."

It was a part of the problem but only a part. I agree with Joe on this one and I have seen the black population milk this for every penny they can get. They have their freedom and look what they choose to do with it. I know some blacks that have used their rights to live the American dream but oh so many that want that public dole and the government is the enabler for such a large problem. American by birth and southern by the grace of God ! :clap:
Isaac

>I agree with Joe on this one

Damn, just when I thought I was winning!

Joe 31 is still so young
 

I would like to thank you for you comment and I had a strange feeling posting it too. So YUPie you think you have been to the fire and have such broad band vision of life. The only way to get experience in life is to grow old. Life teaches us all its lessons and you sir have a long way to go till graduation and class is in session having a family like you do. Best wishes Mr. Pole :rolleyes:
Isaac

The first thing that came to my mind, and I realize this could make this debate get even hotter, after reading your post Isaac is the Katrina disaster and Superdome. There were so many of that group of people who just sat around PRIOR to the storm that had the opportunity to help themselves but chose not to. Instead waited and sat around because of that mentality of "You owe it to me". That cow has been milked dry and it's time to get over it. The Confederate flag stands for a lot of things for a lot of people. Almost 200,000 people died fighting in that war for beliefs they believed strongly in and if we choose to honor them by flying that flag, then it is MY right. I have to tolerate the Black History month. Where is the White History month? Can you hear them screaming now if that month came? If you don't like the flag, don't look at it. I don't believe that many, if hardly any, flying it today are flying it with the thought in mind of, "Gee, I wish we still had slaves."

My thoughts on this topic have changed over the years.
Bit of history, my father was born in Bossier City, my mother in New Orleans, they met at LSU in baton rouge back in the late 40's. I believe I can honestly say, neither my father or mother were at all racist. Just before I was born, my family moved to New Jersey.

My father liked to paint every now and again, and after moving to New Jersey, he painted a rather large painting of the image below
. And hung it over the Fire Place mantle. For my father, this was completely a North vs. South thing. It wasn't even that you'd ever hear my father talking about such things, like the confederacy, or these "damn yankees" that kind of thing. I guess he thought of it enough to give me my middle name of "Lee" after General Lee.

My family moved back to Louisiana some 30 years ago. I've always found this debate to be a bit on the ridiculous side. So over the years, at times I've thought it silly that a courthouse or the like should fly the confederate flag. Thinking in terms of only the south lost the war. And I could see that the flag could upset 'certain' people.

However, over the years, I think I take a bit more pride in knowing my southern 'heritage'. we all like to take pride in where we come from. Be it pride in your state, or your city, and we like to belong. That rebel flag, differentiates us from those "Damn yankees" up yonder :D

There are a very few functions that the federal government SHOULD be tasked with, such as national defense, the interstates, currency and so on...the rest should be up to the individual states. The federal government has grown wayyyy too damn big for it's britches, and I challenge ya to name just ONE way that this has benefitted any of us.

Isaac, are you saying that because the black population does not live up to your standards that they should be put back under slavery?

I was born and raised in Texas, and I completely understand the loyalty and love for your home state. The Confederacy didn't even last half a decade, and it was abolished nearly 150 years ago. The "states rights" issue did not just appear out of thin air, it was sparked by the Federal Government's attempt to abolish slavery. If you agree that slavery is wrong, then the "states rights" issue is a moot point. Furthermore, there is nothing in the Constitution or any other founding document that grants a state, or group of states, rights over the Federal government.

I understand with all of the frustration from putting up with a mentality of entitlement, but that is a separate issue altogether. It's like trying to argue that they were stupid for abolishing slavery because of all the negatives that are happening 150 year later.

The "states rights" argument was one capitalized on by John Calhoun, a politician at the time of the Civil War, believed that when the majority rule and minority rights were in conflict, that one could simply alter or abolish the government. He got that ball rolling and the secession was on.

If you want to quote famous people regarding slavery, here's a few for you:

John Locke: Second Treatise on Government

6. But though this be a state of liberty, yet it is not a state of licence; though man in that state have an uncontrollable liberty to dispose of his person or possessions, yet he has not liberty to destroy himself, or so much as any creature in his possession, but where some nobler use than its bare preservation calls for it. The state of Nature has a law of Nature to govern it, which obliges every one, and reason, which is that law, teaches all mankind who will but consult it, that being all equal and independent, no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty or possessions; for men being all the workmanship of one omnipotent and infinitely wise Maker; all the servants of one sovereign Master, sent into the world by His order and about His business; they are His property, whose workmanship they are made to last during His, not one another's pleasure. And, being furnished with like faculties, sharing all in one community of Nature, there cannot be supposed any such subordination among us that may authorise us to destroy one another, as if we were made for one another's uses, as the inferior ranks of creatures are for ours. Every one as he is bound to preserve himself, and not to quit his station wilfully, so by the like reason, when his own preservation comes not in competition, ought he as much as he can to preserve the rest of mankind, and not unless it be to do justice on an offender, take away or impair the life, or what tends to the preservation of the life, the liberty, health, limb, or goods of another.

Thomas Jefferson
“We have the wolf by the ears: and we can neither hold him, nor safely let him go. Justice is in one scale, and self-preservation in the other.”

Somebody please answer me, what is it about the heritage of the Confederacy that is so important? For the most part all I've heard are arguments citing entitlement from blacks now in the 21st century, the big federal government is evil now in the 21st century, but absolutely nothing to support the idea of the Confederate heritage.

That's a great topic for a different thread!

If you are of Native American decent, chances are you were either a slave or a slave owner. If you are of Acadian decent, chances are you were either a slave or a slave owner. If you are of African decent, chances are you were either a slave or a slave owner...but if you are of African decent and you landed in America then your own people sold you to America as a slave.

Get the hell over it already, everyone.

The confederate flag? It symbolizes "rebel" to many. The boy one of my daughter's married is black and he loves that flag. He wears a tshirt with it.

Get over it.

Agreed! But my statements are also relevant to this thread, and I stand by them. There is no denying the fact that had the south prevailed, the modern Confederacy we would be enjoying would offer far greater personal freedom and a much easier "pursuit of happiness" to the individual American than this bloated monstrosity of a Union. It was about state's rights then, its about state's rights now.

So how would this utopia have developed in the Confederate states, a people who were more concerned with slavery ending or not ending on their terms rather than the end of slavery and recognizing the dignity of the human person?

The fact is, there were more people against slavery than for it, more democratically elected officials in the legislative and executive branches. The majority population won on an issue that was of great moral consequence.

OK, I will try. All heritage is important to someone, right?. Are you saying that not all heritage is important? If so, then who decides what is important and what is not? My point is this is yet another slippery slope. Do we really want the PC police deciding for us? I like making up my own mind, but moreover, I like having the choice to CHANGE my mind as I grow smarter. This is a luxury in some parts.....

The slavery issue had very little to do with the war. To believe otherwise is to succumb to Unionist propoganda. And keep in mind that the victors write the history books. "How would this utopia have developed"? Well, lets look at what it would mean today in practical terms. SO many hot button issues boil down to state's rights. If you were terminally ill and wanted to use marijuana, you could simply travel to a state where such use is legal and available. Lets use the illness example again, and say that if you were terminally ill and wanted physician-assisted suicide, you could simply travel to a state where such a service was legal and available. In BOTH cases, your personal freedom of choice is infringed upon by a federal government that has overstepped the limits of it's authority.

Let me interject here to say...I love the way you all debate. It's so refreshing. No name calling like I see in other forums. Well, except when that creep is aroound.

If slavery had nothing to do with it, then what started the states rights debate?

Just like the evolution debate, there had to be something that started the motion.

"The south maintained with the depth of religious conviction that the Union formed under the Constitution was a "Union of consent" and not of force, that the original states were not the creatures but the creators of the Union, that these states had gained their independence, their freedom, and their sovereignty from the mother country, and had not surrendered these on entering the Union, that by the express terms of the Constitution all rights and powers not delegated were reserved to the states, and the South challenged the North to find one trace of authority in that Constitution for invading and coercing a sovereign state."

Slavery was merely a contemporary controversial and inflammatory issue of the day that was used as a pretext by Lincoln and the North to go to war with the Confederacy, much like "WMD's" was used as a pretense to go to war with Iraq.

Does that answer your question?

I do not wish we still had slaves
 

I am tired of the poor me babies crying for more government hand outs and saying we owe them. It was their cry for freedom and they are still crying for more because the government has trained them that way. They have more chances at the American dream than other people yet they as a group would rather sit on their butts and wait on that check (public dole) and their fair share program and energy supplement checks and food stamps kind of like a bad child that wants to be paid but not told what to do. What they need to tell them is get a job and stay in school and become a tax payer ! With that said I agree with Al the war was about a lot more than slaves it was about the union wanting to control the whole show. There are boats that leave for Africa for all those "African American" people that do not like our system. I guess the same goes for me I could be headed back to Scotland is I wanted to be a "Scottish American" but I am just a American and I do not need to place anything in front of that !
Texasbelle you are such a southern lady and I would like to wish you a very happy 40th birthday today !!!!!!!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap:
Maybe the south is going to do it again ? We say grace and we say ma'am and if you aint in to that we don't give a damn :eek: :eek:
Isaac

Well I got into a debate on this last year with someone and basically I said what you said, I wanted White history month, White Entertainment, All white Pageants, All white Colleges, and damn I want a road called John F. Kennedy running through every city/town in the US as there is a Martin Luther King in each one. If we had all this we all know how "racist" we would be.

I said this before and I'll say it again, I HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT MY ANCESTORS DID IF THEY DID ANYTHING WITH SLAVES. WHY THE HELL DO I HAVE TO PAY FOR WHAT OTHERS DID??????????

We are in the year 2007 wake up america I don't owe anyone of any race anything and if you have one for one race it should be for all I don't care what happened 200 years ago.

I could go on and on on this one i'll calm down for now and go shopping and will bbl today to see what I can add to the fire.

I am with you on this. I never thought much of having a John F. Kennedy road through every town, but I'd rather have it a Ronald Reagan road actually! But hey, it's better than a Martin Luther King because really what did he truly accomplish? He started a movement? I try to get it but I just don't.

I am tired of all the whining out of them. I am tired of 45% of every hard earned dollar my husband earns goes to taxes which in turns lands in alot of their pockets so they can sit at home, run up the crime rate, get free medical care, etc. It's just as irritating as snot. One of my biggest pet peeves is to go to Wal Mart shortly after the first and watch them buy groceries on their food stamp card and see the amount they get. It is unbelievable how much they get, what they buy, and that I am paying for it. And then usually the female will have a Louis Vuitton purse, a cell phone, a "grill", and on and on.

Yes, I could gripe for days about the ways this mentality of "you owe it to me" irritates me. I am with Al on the basis that I believe the Confederate states had they continued to exist would not have allowed this ever. Yes we would have gotten rid of slavery, but the government coming in and taking over and creating all of this would not have happened.

Al, what is your source of information?

The "south" was not a sovereign state and none of the states of the United States are sovereign states, equal to the power of the United States. An example of a sovereign state is a geographic region with a governing body that is recognized on the world stage. The governor of Texas does not go to China as an ambassador of Texas to wage war or peace between China and Texas. It was also the American Colonies that framed and ratified the Constitution and THEN became states, Delaware being the first. They were not states first, then built the Union.

rhertz: "OK, I will try. All heritage is important to someone, right?. Are you saying that not all heritage is important? If so, then who decides what is important and what is not? My point is this is yet another slippery slope. Do we really want the PC police deciding for us? I like making up my own mind, but moreover, I like having the choice to CHANGE my mind as I grow smarter. This is a luxury in some parts....."

The importance of heritage to a person doesn't make it right. The terrorists have a heritage of killing indiscriminately those with whom they disagree. Is that a heritage in which it is good to take pride? (I'm not calling you a terrorist.)

Al, the southern states seceded, formed the Confederacy, then the Confederate States attacked the Union at Ft. Sumter. The Union didn't start the war.

Isaac, I understand and agree with you that our welfare system needs to be seriously revamped, but it makes your reason for waving the Confederate flag sound like you just don't like black people.

Scarlett, I agree. We don't owe anybody and nobody deserves payback for something that happened to their ancestors. If that were the case, I'd be the king of Scotland.

Some quotes
 

You know. the more I read about this. I do believe, that leading up to the civil war.. MUCH of the debate, did have to do with slavery. New states were being formed, southern states wanted them to be entered into the Union as slave states. The debate on slavery had started LONG before the civil war. But I would also add, that once the southern states seceded from the Union.. the war became about restoring the Union as a whole.. RIGHT OR WRONG. (as far as the north was concerned. the south's goal.. to be left alone... )

Heritage is important, but not because you're suppose to have pride in it. The point of history is so that we can remember. We remember the heroes and the villain of humanity's past because it is part of our race's fight to earn collective wisdom.

It may be true that terrorists have a heritage of their own and I don't think that is anything to be proud of. However, this is no reason for me to forget about it. I might forget who the terrorists once were.

As far as the Confederate flag, it is as much a part of history as the bullet that shot Lincoln or the antique guns that once fought the bloodiest battles in the Civil War. We are not proud of these events, but we want to remember them and honor them because if you don't respect history and the chain of events that lead to it, you are doomed to repeat it.

Hey Matty I like your tone
 

I like the way you discuss things there Matty. I do not own a Confederate flag and I do not recall ever owning one. My point is it has been used by PC people for a covert reason to motivate a racial divide and get the people on the public dole to vote for left wing groups that are for the entitlements. It was the south that supplied the labor and food for those up north and it is still the south that provides food and oil for much of this country. There where people that fought under that flag and died in something much bigger than for owning a slave as most where to poor to own a slave. It is time for them to quit acting like kept people and get some pride and dignity about themselves and work and pay taxes. Yes southern by the grace of God :clap:
Isaac

Thanks. I agree that everything associated with white people has been used to empower an entitlement mentality. I take more of an approach of personal accountability, whomever does not work does not eat! It's biblical.

I laughed when I read your slogan "Southern by the grace of God." We always grew up saying "American by birth, Texan by the grace of God."

The south provided/(s) food and oil for much of the north, but they provide consumers. Not that one is better than the other, just that we are complimentary.

This is my final political thought for this thread (yeah right). If you want to complain about many blacks not doing with what they were given, you should be complaining about Brown vs. the Board of Education.

Hey hey hey
 

Hey hey hey, I was born a rebel
down in dixie, on a sunday morning.
With one foot in the grave, and one foot on the pedal
I was born a rebel. :cool:

>They were not states first, then built the Union.

Then who exactly was at the Constitutional Conventions? I thought it was representatives from the states that assembled to form a national government after they won freedom from England.

"Then who exactly was at the Constitutional Conventions? I thought it was representatives from the states that assembled to form a national government after they won freedom from England."

They were representatives from the 13 colonies or de facto states, and upon ratification of the U.S. Constitution, joined the Union and became states under the authority of the Union. They were not states under a non-binding or suggested leadership like the U.N. They became subordinate to the Union. Their statehood was not the same before and after ratification of the Constitution, there was a change in order and authority.

Come on Joepole the one time I bet on you and....
 

do not drop the ball sounds like Matty is Choo Chooing your here. Hey Matty got to know one thing. Male or female ? I am thinking with your knowledge of history a guy for sure. I like debates like this I am learning as you two post and hey even if I do not agree, you two do not have a financial interest in this so you speak your heart not your pocket book. I shall be waiting for the Joepole to make his post. Come on Joe you can do it. :clap:
Isaac

If there were no states creating the Federal government, then

1. Why did the framers refer to the nation as "The United States"

2. Why was the Constitutional Convention begun by saying "...a Convention of delegates who shall have been appointed by the several States be held at Philadelphia..." ?

3. If not states, what entities did the Articles of Confederation unite?

The Dukes of Hazzard gave the rebel flag a bad name. :)

1, 2, and 3. The definition of states changed. They were states as the members of the European Union are states (ie France, Germany, Austria, etc). These states were held together loosely under the Articles of Confederation. Their major threat was England and the states had a better chance if they banded together. After the Revolutionary War, the states recognized a need for a stronger central authority. When the Articles of Confederation were replaced by the Constitution, the states ceased to exist as sovereign states like Germany or France, and became what we know today as "states" in the United States. Geographical regions whose populations are ruled by a local governing body, whose authority is granted by a Constitution shared by all states of that nation.

It seems I was too vague in my previous explanation. Does this help?

http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collecti...l/intro01.html

{...and I'm a guy}

Where is Joepole ?
 

Your a guy and a smart man to boot. Thank you for your post and I found them very well written and I am surprised that Mr. Pole is not responding he is always right or is it left ?
Isaac